Curse

dwchang · Oct 23, 2010, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

I know for a fact that [rawr] used to PvE quite a bit together and had no problems.

You're right. I still talk to some of them outside of the game and a non-trivial number of them have had their GWAMM title for almost two years now.

Milennin · Oct 23, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Randomizing of teams FTW, keeps things fair. Syncers can burn in hell. Yeah... I don't care for win streaks

All professions seem fairly balanced (from what I've seen), so no complains from me. The Warrior bar plays pretty well. Nothing fancy or overpowered, but it does the job well.

I think it's just fine.

Thevil King · Oct 23, 2010, 06:02 PM // 18:02

just to quote myself from the other cb thread, i think this sums up a fair bit of my arguments against this update:

Quote:

tbh, i am not so optimistic about that. having played a couple hundred games in this new format, i have observed this:

1.for some reason the majority of the people have the pre-established impression that the only way to win is through fighting. consequently they completely ignore any strategic aspect such as capping, time killing, coordination, etc.

2.this new format allows too little time for good players to teach any of the aforementioned strategic aspects to the inexpd. there is only one game, and about 30secs of waiting time. once the game is done, most likely you will not see them again. in other words, there is only 30 secs to actually explain things thru text.

3.these 30seconds rarely have any effect on the changing the idea of killing only. most of the time when i try to explain things such as split+cap, time kill, or how to start the game, i get called the noob instead. very few ppl take these concepts srsly, even when presented to them explicitly by an expd player. and it is certain a short time frame of 1game will not change their views. the most common responses are the likes of "mob center and hold it", "stay here and dont fight", "dont cap just stay at center".

4.what about leading through example? well, by the time the game starts, the advices for capping instead of mobbing are usually dismissed, and people run towards the main shrine anyways. during the game i can call targets or draw on map and stuff, but not alot of people pay attention to that. the problem is, it is very difficult to establish any kind of rapport between the players to actually get them to listen to your advice. and one games time is definately not enough for that.

5.2 of the maps certainly do not favor substantial strategic play in themselves; the norn map and the lava map. as a result, they only add to the majority's idea of cb being a big spamfest brawl. there can be some strategy involved, and they are more subtle, but these maps largely reward the team who does the spams the most dmg in a mob. it presents to the players as if it is just another ra arena, which cb is clearly not.

then drawing from these observations, here are my concerns:

6.this new format certainly favors the majority of inexperienced players, but at a heavy price. the short duration of a team will mean that the experienced will likely be unable to communicate any sort of useful ideas to the inexperienced. but since this is the case, the expd players, wanting to win, will still need to do their best to carry their teams to victory. in that sense, it is primarily luck that determines the games. either ur good player sucessfully carries the team, or the inexperienced team makes too many mistakes and loses. in either case it causes tremendous frustration for the expd players, because it forces upon them burdens that they are not entitled to. and to amplify that, this is exactly what happens every game.

7.as a result, the good players will gradually be driven away by the unwelcoming format. by then, good players who are willing to give any sort of advice will be more than a rarity. their experience will mostly be overwhelmed by a sea of ignorance and hostility. the game play, by then, will mostly be degenerated into brawl fests and cb will be played as another ra arena.

as someone who loves playing cb, this is clearly not what is desired. but that is where this new format is heading towards.

Jessyi · Oct 23, 2010, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Team scramble is garbage. Throw that shit out.

Milennin · Oct 23, 2010, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thevil King

1.for some reason the majority of the people have the pre-established impression that the only way to win is through fighting. consequently they completely ignore any strategic aspect such as capping, time killing, coordination, etc.

The groups I have been playing with have focused on other things than just mindlessly killing stuff... sure, some do, but at least half of the groups I've been playing with do cap and/or stay together.

Thevil King · Oct 23, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milennin

The groups I have been playing with have focused on other things than just mindlessly killing stuff... sure, some do, but at least half of the groups I've been playing with do cap and/or stay together.

what do u mean by cap and/or stay together? capping in a mob? isnt that essentially what i said?

i dont want to get into the details of exact strategies, but let me say this: in terms of strategy in cb, there really is no set way to generalize how it should be done. capping does not always do the job for winning, and neither does staying together. mindlessly killing stuff can some times work, but certainly not in many cases.

the point i am making in 1 in my post is that the majority players already have a set idea of how exactly every game should be played. so, for example, the most common one is "cap center and stay there". it works in some cases but not all. but a lot of players are so convinced in its infallibility that they think this is the only, and best, way to win a game, which is not true. so, if i am telling them to cap the side shrines on the norn map, most of the responses are dismissal, and there almost always are people who suicide in the middle despite numerous advices offered to them. which shows how hard it is to change their opinion on this.

Konig Des Todes · Oct 23, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thevil King

the key word you are using here is "some", how much is that? minimal? barely? sufficient? and then later on you switch it to "much more"?

no doubt everywhere you go u need to make sound decisions, but the fact that one team loses in the big brawl will mean that this team will almost never be able to come back, if the other team keeps pressing on the kill streak. this almost always happen, because 99% of the people have no idea wtf "time kill" is, and just get rolled when they charge one by one into the mob. very rarely are teams able to come back from that; it literally takes some miracle to have teammates who know how to recover from this or do something extraordinary to make a comeback.

the criticism i have for this map is precisely this: that this map, along with the norn map rewards exactly this type of brainless brawling. that once a brawl in the start is done, you can pretty much tell who wins, though significantly more so the case in the former. in other words, this completely undermines any kind of strategic play. and i can say this: an effort by one exp player will most certainly not suffice in carrying the team to victory.

yes, the map is small and easy to go c space spam, even you point that out. if that is so, then how exactly is that compatible with your immediate claim that it is "much more thinking-needed"? you are contradicting yourself here. honestly even if two skilled teams were to play eachother on this map, it makes no difference to when two noob teams play on it. because it will be an all out brawl in both cases.

Some merely means a number, not a small number. I do not contradict myself. WHile it is easier to get into mindless brawls, it also makes it more important to figure out how to avoid mindless brawls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

I'm sorry but if you honestly think DoA/UW/SF is out of reach to PvPers you need to not talk about things you don't know. That may come off as rude, but someone needs to tell you.

I never said all, do note that. I also took out the usage of gimmick, as I said.

Without knowing what's in the area, you won't stand a chance except through pure luck. This goes for anyone. Same with going into PvP matches - you need to know what map and what format that map utilizes before the match starts. You cannot prepare counters to what other people bring, but you can bring counters to the more popular builds.

If I go into DoA prepared and knowledgeable of the area, and if I go into HA prepared and knowledgeable of the maps - with equally prepared and organized teams, I will, more or less, have equal standings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

That's most certainly not the case. Just as one example, the first group to ever kill Urgoz was comprised of famous members of the GvG community.

That was then, I'm talking about now. And do note I never said it would be impossible to beat something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

I think most people would disagree with what you consider to be a high end PvP guild.

High-end PvP guilds, as I always hear being referred to, are guilds which focus on HA and GvG. If a PvP guild that does nothing but these suddenly go "let's do Urgoz!" thinking it's the same as PvP, they'll get slaughtered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwchang

O RLY? Funny you should mention that....

My Guild used to only play in high-end GvG for ~3 years and has recently come back to finish off our HoM. Just last night we beat all of Domain of Anguish with a random build not found on PvX, no consumables and just hitting c + space for a few hours. Oh and the previous weekend we did Urgoz and the Deep with the same setup.

So yeah, you might wanna stop generalizing things. PvE isn't as "hard" as you make it seem so stop getting such a big head. Especially after you add all those consumables and PvE-only skills. Back when Te beat Urgoz, both things did not exist.

Firstly, I'm not saying PvE is hard, I'm saying that it has an equal difficulty to PvP'ers - especially for those who do not have experience in what they're doing. Tell me, with your random build c spacing trick, how many knew what they were doing? How many people had targets? Do you have proof that the only thing you did was c+space? I doubt it.

I'm not the one with the big head, elitists are. And Elitists exist in both sides. I merely say that the "difficulty" of the sides are closer than people tend to think.

I agree that consumables and PvE-only skills make it easier, but I'm talking about taking those out of the equation - like I said the removal of gimmicks.

To all of you: Please stop making it seem like I'm trying to say PvE is harder than PvP. It isn't. They're on par - both in importance and difficulty. You need to know what you're going into, you need to be able to communicate with your team (or in the case of using h/h - like HB did - learn how to control the AI to your advantage), and you need to have good builds, in order to succeed. If you say otherwise, then you're no worse than what you're saying I am.

fallot · Oct 23, 2010, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

They're on par - both in importance and difficulty.

Hell no, and don't pretend it is. Killing AI, no matter how difficult, no matter how much coordination you require doesn't match up to any form of PvP. They do require different skills but PvP requires skills above and beyond those you develop from PvE.

Also no one who extensively PvPs has not extensively PvEd. People like shiny stuff.

Lhim · Oct 23, 2010, 09:49 PM // 21:49

I was skeptical about the randomization in CB. But after playing several hours I have to say that this is a very nice implementation. Nicely done!

dwchang · Oct 23, 2010, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Firstly, I'm not saying PvE is hard, I'm saying that it has an equal difficulty to PvP'ers - especially for those who do not have experience in what they're doing. Tell me, with your random build c spacing trick, how many knew what they were doing? How many people had targets? Do you have proof that the only thing you did was c+space? I doubt it.

Even if you have little experience with PvE (like many of my Guildmates), it's not that hard to realize the core concepts of PvE and what you need to do to win efficiently:

1) Have a tank to absorb the majority of damage so it's isolated and easier to heal.

2) Group things up because the AI is retarded and then use AoE to kill it quickly and efficiently.

3) Adhere to a standard Frontline, Midline and Backline, just like in PvP.

For most PvE you really only need to do 1 and 2 and you'll probably win since the AI is not smart enough to adapt. Even in HM.

As for my own group, of course we call targets. Do you think target calling isn't done in PvP? If anything, it's significantly simpler in PvE in that you target call the healers first, then the casters and lastly the physicals (in general not always). It seems obvious in both formats that you want to either take out the one preventing the most damage (i.e. healing) or the one doing the most damage to your party (i.e. casters). I don't think that requires any special PvE knowledge. I imagine that is what you would in a real situation when presented with a problem (i.e. tackle what is giving you the most trouble, etc.). All we did is pretty much what I just described and it wasn't all that difficult. Even without consumables.

I don't understand how your rebuttal is "how many of them knew what they were doing?" Well obviously all of them. It doesn't take a genius to realize the above things or at a minimum to follow orders or called targets. Are you trying to say these basic principles are really all that difficult for competent PvP players to pick up? I think you underestimate the competence of these players.

What you're misstating is overall game competence. There are incompetent players in both PvE and PvP, but if you are a competent player, chances are you have the potential to do well in either format just by following directions or in the above case, doing rather obvious things. It's the same in pretty much any MMO's PvE.

drkn · Oct 23, 2010, 11:56 PM // 23:56

@dwchang - from your post above i got the strong impression that both PvP and PvE sides of GW are very similar, not to even say the very same. Oh, wait, it's the same game after all...
I recently got into playing RA - had a total of 9 glad points up to this moment, made back in TA, so you can call me complete PvP noob. Still, after several hours i made it up to 25 consecs a few times and got praised for playing my class well, even though it were my very first steps there. I know the strict PvP community often argues if RA is fully eligible as 'trve uber kvlt PvP format', but i know enough people who support this arena to claim it really is standard GW PvP.
The whole post made just to point out that, basing on dwchang's post above, a strict PvPer can hop into PvE as easily as a strict PvEr into PvP. If you know the general idea and use your brain cells sometimes, all you need more is raw experience, aka play time. Still, without said experience most people - and by that i mean roughly 95% - get steamrolled at the very first steps/tries, often getting annoyed and leaving the format (be it RA or UW).

Thevil King · Oct 24, 2010, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Some merely means a number, not a small number. I do not contradict myself. WHile it is easier to get into mindless brawls, it also makes it more important to figure out how to avoid mindless brawls.

it is not more important, because the 2 3shrine maps do not reward avoiding mindless brawls as much as it should. as a matter of fact, im inclined to say that there is little point in avoiding it. because at one point or the other in the start you will have to go into a brawl, regardless of how u cap or try to avoid it. and, under this format, that brawl pretty much determines the game. this is bad because it give the impression that cb is just like ra, and that mob fights are the only way to win, which is the majority's view. even if you try to do some tactics you still get the teammates who does not go with that, and i can tell that u experienced it too:

Quote:

Sadly, at the moment especially, people don't seem to think about what to do (I cannot tell you how many times I've had a teammate *usually warrior* who goes 1v3/4/5).

Essence Snow · Oct 24, 2010, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwchang

Even if you have little experience with PvE (like many of my Guildmates), it's not that hard to realize the core concepts of PvE and what you need to do to win efficiently:

1) Have a tank to absorb the majority of damage so it's isolated and easier to heal.

2) Group things up because the AI is retarded and then use AoE to kill it quickly and efficiently.

3) Adhere to a standard Frontline, Midline and Backline, just like in PvP.

For most PvE you really only need to do 1 and 2 and you'll probably win since the AI is not smart enough to adapt. Even in HM.

As for my own group, of course we call targets. Do you think target calling isn't done in PvP? If anything, it's significantly simpler in PvE in that you target call the healers first, then the casters and lastly the physicals (in general not always). It seems obvious in both formats that you want to either take out the one preventing the most damage (i.e. healing) or the one doing the most damage to your party (i.e. casters). I don't think that requires any special PvE knowledge. I imagine that is what you would in a real situation when presented with a problem (i.e. tackle what is giving you the most trouble, etc.). All we did is pretty much what I just described and it wasn't all that difficult. Even without consumables.

I don't understand how your rebuttal is "how many of them knew what they were doing?" Well obviously all of them. It doesn't take a genius to realize the above things or at a minimum to follow orders or called targets. Are you trying to say these basic principles are really all that difficult for competent PvP players to pick up? I think you underestimate the competence of these players.

What you're misstating is overall game competence. There are incompetent players in both PvE and PvP, but if you are a competent player, chances are you have the potential to do well in either format just by following directions or in the above case, doing rather obvious things. It's the same in pretty much any MMO's PvE.

GW is not soley about the"trinity". There are many others ways to roll PvE than this, many more effective. This shows your lack of knowledge of PvE sorry to say. While it might work....far from optimal in most cases.

ilr · Oct 24, 2010, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Undisclosed

Wow...

Really?

this pretty much....

competition definitely got stronger in each successive CB matchup (until ya get sent back to the outpost) and that's good enough.

mrmango · Oct 24, 2010, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Dwchang isn't correct when he says a tank is necessary. Unless he means putting some enchantments on the first guy to go into a mob, before everyone else.

I mostly PVE, but I followed PVP on obs a lot two three years ago. I think PVP is much harder to win, and it's also harder to know why you lose when you do.

mage767 · Oct 24, 2010, 08:57 AM // 08:57

@dwchang and all PvP people:

Your comments how PvE is so easy with consumables and all and PvP players can do PvE anyday is so much full of lolz. My guild used to do DoA HM full clears just before EOTN came out and it took us ton of coordination in vent to clear it. We failed often, but the satisfaction was immense having cleared a very tough area. I challenge a top PvP guild to try and do it today, without any consumables, even though a number of skills are so much better now that they were 3+ years ago. Bring it on and show me proof!

Do not give me the BS that PvP is much harder than PvE. You can't make comparisons between the two formats about dificulty when they have different objectives. For example, if an average PvP Joe plays PvE with some standard hero bars in NM, he will do extremely well. However, he might have trouble when he jumps in HM and it will take some time and optimization to figure things out. Similarly, an average PvEr who jumps into HA will lose with the random teams, unless he is carried by a friend who PvPs regularly and teaches him the 'trade' (aka tactics). Once he has basic knowledge, PvP will appear easy. So, stop this BS that PvP is hard. If one plays PvP for some time, learns the standard bars, team builds, rules of engagement, and map tactics, PvP will appear easy and even fun.

And when you talk about elitists, they exist on both sides. Truely, there are a number of PvE people who would really love to PvP in HA, but are barred from joining matches due to the so called r6+ only (some teams require even higher). Elitists don't allow new people to learn. But let me ask you this, how many of these so called 'PVP elitists' played each and every profession fully without having to resort to "standard" bars developed by others. Very very few! So, when they say they are skilled with a class, it's laughable, because they probably played only know 5% of all the skills of that class. The remaining 95%, they never need to use and have no idea of.

dwchang · Oct 24, 2010, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

GW is not soley about the"trinity". There are many others ways to roll PvE than this, many more effective. This shows your lack of knowledge of PvE sorry to say. While it might work....far from optimal in most cases.

Did you see me put "this is the only way to PvE" or anything? No. I simply said you could conquer most PvE areas (including supposed "elite" areas) by following these simple concepts that are in pretty much any MMO and you ignore that and simply go "WELL THAT'S NOT THE BEST WAY YOU PvE NOOB! LOLOLOLOL" I'm sorry that does not meet your high standards oh great PvE Master! What did I forget to mention things like an Imbagon or Spirit Spammer? Oh how about minion masters or discord? Is this supposedly "forbidden knowledge" we PvPers couldn't possibly comprehend? OH NOES!

If anything I was trying to illustrate how simple it is to "win" at PvE and that it doesn't require this massive amount of dedication and skill people seem to imply. Many times (in this very thread) people go on and on about how PvP'ers can't PvE and I am simply providing a counter example that completely refutes this retarded and arrogant claim. You can conquer these "elite" areas by simply not being an idiot so many of you need to get off your high horses. PvE isn't hard. At all. So get over yourselves.

I also love how you try to use this opportunity to slam players who don't have as much "knowledge" as you. I'm sorry, we didn't feel like running a SC build with consumables or go read webpages detailing step by step how to do things the "best way." Frankly I don't find that "skillful" at all. That's taking advantage of someone else's knowledge and duplicating it. How does that take any actual talent when your opponent is a scripted AI and someone tells you what to bring?

Again, I am simply refuting the (retarded) claim that PvP players can't tackle PvE successfully. I (and others) have provided sufficient evidence completely contrary to it and no one has refuted it other than using it as an opportunity to either bash someone or elevate themselves. I'm pretty sure there are more PvP players who are able to conquer PvE than the reverse.

In any case, people talk about how arrogant and elitist PvP'ers are, but if anything all I've learned from these threads is that a *minority* of PvE'ers are also full of themselves. So in conclusion, please "enlighten" me and the other "ignorant" PvP masses with your knowledge oh great PvE Master!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmango

Dwchang isn't correct when he says a tank is necessary. Unless he means putting some enchantments on the first guy to go into a mob, before everyone else.

I didn't specify since I didn't think it was necessary for me to literally walk you step by step on how I PvE in a thread about PvP. Most would have found it useless. What you say is also true or in some cases and in others you could have an actual boring as hell tank build where someone just stands there and doesn't have any fun. In short, I didn't feel it was necessary to go into such detail about how I PvE since it was irrelevant to the point I was refuting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

@dwchang and all PvP people:

Your comments how PvE is so easy with consumables and all and PvP players can do PvE anyday is so much full of lolz. My guild used to do DoA HM full clears just before EOTN came out and it took us ton of coordination in vent to clear it. We failed often, but the satisfaction was immense having cleared a very tough area. I challenge a top PvP guild to try and do it today, without any consumables, even though a number of skills are so much better now that they were 3+ years ago. Bring it on and show me proof!

Not that I can provide proof, but I actually beat DoA with my Guildies a little bit after it was released and the only reason we're redoing it is because A.net did not retroactively give credit. Again, no proof so you'll either have to believe me or not. Also I'm pretty sure there's a post somewhere on these forums of a rawr group beating it in HM and setting the record (at the time).

At the same time, I find such a "challenge" laughable. The fact you (and others) are SO insulted that PvP'ers are saying PvE isn't that hard is...laughable. Does it hurt your honor or something that others can conquer the same thing as you? Who gives a shit? It's just a game and quite frankly to be successful at it, it doesn't require that much skill.

That isn't to say there aren't players who are talented, but again, to simply "succeed" in PvE, you don't need to be that good. And yes, I'm sure there are more efficient ways to go about doing it. I am simply refuting the blanket statement that PvP'ers can't tackle "elite" PvE areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

And when you talk about elitists, they exist on both sides.

Uhm...I've been saying that for quite a few replies now so you're preaching to the choir. It's not the PvP'ers claiming there isn't elitism. It's the PvE'ers making it seem like their shit don't stink too.

Mireles · Oct 24, 2010, 09:10 AM // 09:10

After reading the multiple thread discussion on this random shuffle situation... it seems to me most of the complaints are based on player competence....and the inability to streak with a competent team....getting rid of the shuffle won't make people more competent... it will just allow randomly or synced competent teams to roll over the inexperienced which is clear that ANet is trying to eliminate....

Just like the previous format, if you get a fail team you lose...So fail teams are not a reason to eliminate the new format... Point allocation per win was increased to replace streaking... the only thing you don't get now is win streaks... your just going to have to take em where you can get them or stop playing.

lishi · Oct 24, 2010, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

GW is not soley about the"trinity". There are many others ways to roll PvE than this, many more effective. This shows your lack of knowledge of PvE sorry to say. While it might work....far from optimal in most cases.

Not really

Let's take example for the High end area.

DoA, there are some split, if you want time it under 40-50 min, but the core is basic a tank and spank.

FoWSc, same above. You have 2 assassin who can solo stuff where they can but for everything else is tank and spank.

DeepSc / urgoz sc. Tank and spank if you want get it under 30-20 min.

Even In UW there are some part of tank and spank.

Now the majority of pve, you might not be noticing it because most of time you wont have enough people to settle up a decent tank and spank. But i assure you it's the most efficient.

During SS/LB double point weekend we set up a tank and spank group for it. It goes this way :

1) tank (SF normally) run in aggro all he can and ball up the group, it take about 15-20 second.
The spiker do the needed preparation.
2) the spike, who normally take 1-2 second.

So in 22-25 second you killed 3-4 group of enemy(more if you find yourself in a situation where many enemy patrol overlap).
I hardly think any other way can be more efficient.

Swahnee · Oct 24, 2010, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Even in the regular playing you use spirits, minions, or physical frontliners (= tanks) and caster damage, either in the form of "direct" damage (spells, hexes), or "indirect" damage (physical buffing). You always want your squishies not to be hit by HM monsters. I'm wondering what are these more effective ways to play PvE without having somone in the frontline absorbing the loads of damage incoming, and someone else out of monsters' reach to nuke them off. Maybe you can try using a high defensive setup, like lots of EMos bonders, or communing rits spamming shelter and union, or massive shutdown like a panic mesmer, so to let monsters hit the casters, but is it really more effective than the previous solutions? I doubt it.

This is required in PvE HM because monsters hit so hard. PvP foes don't, so you can deal with a enemy warrior getting at you simply kiting back, trying to have him overextended. In PvE HM kiting or even pre-kiting a foe which runs faster than you will simply mean to help him killing you triggering his criticals, so you need someone to drive the monsters' attention away from you, unless you are in some god mode, or you are farming them

.